How should we look at these OT verses?

[clinevol98]

Could you please explain how we should interpret certain Old Testament passages that are used by premillennials and dispensationals to justify theories based on what happens with modern-day Israel are somehow signs that the Second Coming is near?

For example, Genesis 12:3, Psalm 83, Zechariah 14:12, Isaiah 17 and 66:8, and countless other passages (most notably Ezekiel 38-39 and Daniel 2 and 7-9) are used to promote the various end times theories regarding Israel.

Also, how do you counter the notion that Israel becoming a nation once again in 1948 is a monumental event that is leading to the Second Coming? I've heard people say that the Second Coming wasn't "imminent" until Israel was reborn in 1948. Now I know there's not one verse of Scripture to back up that statement.

So if these passages aren't talking about what the premillennials say they're talking about, then what are they talking about? What light should we look at them in?

The reason I'm asking is that these verses seem to play on coincidences and similarities to current events in addition to the gullibility of most people. To these people:

Genesis 12:3 still applies, so anyone who doesn't support Israel is cursed.

Zechariah 14:12 is talking about nuclear weapons, even though the passage clearly says that the horrific imagery is the affect of a "plague."

Isaiah 66:8 is a direct reference to the rebirth of Israel in 1948.

Isaiah 17 is speaking about the future total destruction of Damascus, which will probably be accomplished through an Israeli nuclear strike on that city.

Not one of the verses I mentioned say anything to the effect of "once this happens, Jesus will return." For example, premillennials always say that once Russia invades Israel Jesus will return, or once Damascus is nuked Jesus will return, or whatever. However, not one mention of the Second Coming of Jesus is talked about in Ezekiel 38-39.

These passages are also surrounded by other passages that are almost surely speaking of things that happened during the Old Testament and are not currently unfulfilled. Some of them seem to be "after the fact" prophecies. Before 1948, were people expecting Israel to be reborn and usher in the "last days?"

Finally, Jesus Himself does not reiterate these prophecies when He speaks of His Second Coming. He makes no mention of a distant future rebirth of Israel, or a future Russian invasion of Israel (the disciples would have no idea of what he was talking about if He did!), or of someone making a peace treaty with Israel, or of a future nuclear conflict between Israel and Arab/Muslim nations. All He has to say is that no one knows the day or hour.

Also, what verses do people use to justify a "pre-tribulation rapture" and the "7-year tribulation" itself? I hear these teachings talked about all the time and they are believed by most people, so what verses are used to justify them and how can they be countered?

[jcr4runner]

How do you counter the notion that Israel becoming a nation once again in 1948 is a monumental event that is leading to the Second Coming?

I believe in the national ethnic conversion of Israel as an eschatological event. However, I don't think that the geo-political rebirth of Israel in 1948 has much to do with it. It matters not that Jews are living in Israel unless they believe in Jesus Christ.

It could be that the civil nation of Israel is being formed to foster the conversion of the Jews or to protect the Jews from another holocaust so that they are not destroyed and may be converted in the future. But I don't think it is prophesied in scripture anymore than the birth of any specific Gentile nation that has a large number of believers in Jesus.

It is true that an ethnic people that honors God will have national prosperity. So the rebirth of Israel as a nation-state may figure into a future blessing when "all Israel shall be saved."

The dispensationalist sees two churches: Israel and the Gentile church. The covenantal approach is to recognize one church: Old Covenant Israel has become the New Covenant church.

Dispensationalists apply prophecies of the millennium to geo-political Israel. Covenantalists see these prophecies as applying to the Church here and now.

Thus Genesis 12:3; Isaiah 66:3 speak of a continual blessing for the Church comprised of both Gentiles and Jews.

Zechariah 14:12 and Isaiah 17 speak of the temporal sanctions of God on the nations that attacked Israel in the days of the prophets. These are fulfilled prophecies although there is an eschatological sense in which these judgments can be understood eternal judgments against the people and nations who finally oppose God.

[clinevol98]

It could be that the civil nation of Israel is being formed to foster the conversion of the Jews or to protect the Jews from another holocaust so that they are not destroyed and may be converted in the future.

It's interesting that you say that because with the Jews living in such proximity to Iran they are more likely to be destroyed than if they were dispersed all over the world. But as you've said, current events in the Middle East have nothing to do with Bible prophecy, correct? In fact, do any current events have anything to do with Bible prophecy?

Do you personally think Iran would attack Israel or vice versa?

I also asked this question in another post but I'll ask it again: what Biblical evidence is there to show that Christianity will bring about a time of peace right before the Second Coming? The Bible seems to indicate that wars and conflicts will keep on until the end (Daniel 9:26).