Question: Can you prove there's such a thing as God?

[lfberry]

God has proven his existence. Look around you. The Bible says (Rom 1:19-20 NIV) "...what may be known about God is plain to them [people], because God has made it plain to them. {20} For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

It says the reason people don't see it is because they "suppress the truth by their wickedness."(Rom 1:18 NIV) They don't want to acknowledge that there is a God, because if they do, they must admit that there is an absolute authority that determines right and wrong. If such an authority exists, it is also probable that they will some day have to face him and his judgment. We (people) have a vested interest in the proposition that there is no God, because that allows us to do as we please and be a god unto ourselves. Therefore, we "suppress" anything that is in conflict with this view.

One of the most popular genres of TV/film/literature is the crime drama. (just look at how many Law and Order and CSI spin offs there are). The plot is always the same. Someone did something bad and by the end of the story, they have been brought to justice. These stories resonate with us (people in general) because justice is a core value deep down inside of everyone. You could go anywhere on the planet and find that people would feel the need for justice.

Justice is a core value to us because it is a part of God's nature in us. God is just. He does bring justice. It may not be swift by our time table, but it does come and is certain. He DOES judge Wrongdoing. He cannot do otherwise.

Herein lies the problem.

We are ALL guilty of wrongdoing. We are all in line for judgment. God's justice is unavoidable. (hence the need to explain God out of existence)

But God doesn't want to destroy man. "...He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish..."(2 Pet 3:9 NIV). He loves mankind and each of us personally. Yet He is Holy and Just cannot simply ignore justice.

So God provided a way out. He found a way to satisfy Justice without destroying us. He sent his son, Jesus, to take our place.
(Rom 3:25-26 NIV) "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- {26} he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

You see, Jesus was the only person who ever lived who did NOT deserve to be destroyed in judgment. He was the only person who did not need to be judged for his own wrong doing (which the Bible calls "sin") because he had none. Therefore he was able to step into our place and take the punishment due to us.

Suppose you find yourself in court someday, and the judge offers to pay your fine for you if you plead guilty. Whose fault is it if you refuse the deal? Is it the judges? No. It is yours. Now you have to admit that you are guilty, and you have to "believe" that he will do what what he said. But if you turn it down, it is no ones fault but your own.

Suppose you find yourself in a crashing plane. The pilot hands you his parachute and says he will go down with the plane so you can escape. If you refuse to believe that the parachute will save you and don't make use if it... whose fault it that? Certainly not the person who provided it to you at great personal sacrifice.

Jesus said, (John 7:17 NIV) "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." The prerequisite for being able to correctly recognize God, is a willingness to do His will. If we are NOT willing to do His will, then we have a tendency to "suppress the truth." The issue is not one of God's ability to "prove His Existence" but rather our willingness or unwillingness to accept the implications that reality.

In the Bible, God says (Jer 29:13 NIV) "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

I pray that you will seek Him... with an open heart... with a willing heart... with all your heart.

[jcr4runner]

That was a good respone, lf.

I was going to respond with presuppositionalism.

If you presuppose the existence of God, then there is nothing that exists EXCEPT proof of God's existence. The problem with man is not that he needs more proof or evidence, the problem is that he needs repentance. The atheist does not have a philosophical problem with God, he has a moral problem.

Every argument begins with an unprovable premise. Given a true premise, one can arrive at a valid conclusion that is equally true. The problem is that one can never be absolutely certain that the premises of an argument are true. Scriptural presuppositions are true because the Bible is God’s Word. Any other rationalist system is untrustworthy because it must be based on the presuppositions of human beings corrupted by the Fall of Adam.

A “true” premise implies the sufficiency of human reason. One may attempt to prove a premise through argumentation. Yet these arguments will be supported by equally unprovable premises. A true premise implies that one has either consciously or unconsciously arrived at a foregone conclusion. Circular reasoning is inescapable. Furthermore, this is always the reasoning of an imperfect mind. Therefore, only premises that come from a perfect mind, such as those originating from the inscripturated Word of God, are trustworthy and reliable.

The presuppositional system of apologetics states that the Christian ought not to use rational argument to attempt to prove the truth of God’s Word to non-believers. The Christian ought to start all argumentation with scripture as a presupposition. I do not deny that there are rational arguments that prove the validity of the Word of God. On the contrary, nothing exists except proof. Yet human beings have a problem with comprehending the Word of God as truth. The problem is not philosophical in nature, but rather moral. The problem is that our understanding is clouded by original sin and therefore we have a problem with comprehending the truth.

This way of thinking cuts across the grain of modern rational thought which proposes that one must prove something in order to believe it to be true. However, presuppositionalism has had many forerunners in the medieval and ancient world.

St. Anselm, Archbishop of Canterbury wrote, “For I seek not to understand in order that I may believe; but I believe in order that I may understand, for I believe for this reason: that unless I believe, I cannot understand.”

This is the opposite of the famous maxim, “I think therefore I am.” Rationalists such as Descartes have always wanted to “understand it” or “prove it” in order to believe it. However, Anselm’s statement is undeniably true. All truth is based on certain unprovable presuppositions. We must first have faith in order to know anything.

[AMbomb]

If there was such a thing as God, it would be easy for him to do something that would erase all doubts of his existence. Since that hasn't happened, we can logically conclude that the Christian belief in a god who wants people to believe in him is wrong.

[AMbomb]

Presuppositionalism is totally illogical. There is absolutely no reason to presuppose the existence of God. To presuppose something, there has to be some reason why it would have to be. That's not the case for God. There is no reason why there has to be such a thing as God.

[jcr4runner]

In addition to the inscripturated Word of God, we have natural revelation. The Apostle Paul explained this in Romans 1:20,21: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

It is not illogical to presuppose the existence of God. Every argument begins with a presupposition. Even the atheist presupposes the existence of God first before he denies there is a God. Presuppositionalism just says that we do not need to PROVE God's existence by relying on anything else besides the written revelation He has given us. The same Word tells us that man is sinful and suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

Presuppositionalism states that natural revelation has been given to EVERYONE, but that because sin has made us foolish, we supress this evidence. Therefore, in our sinful state we either refuse or are unable to acknowledge the plain fact that God exists even though there is ample evidence staring us in the face everyday.

[AMbomb]

So basically you're saying you know there's such a thing as God because of the Bible. That is illogical. You have no reason to think that the Bible is the word of God. In fact, there is reason to think that it's not. The Bible is chock full of errors and contradictions. If it was really the word of God, it wouldn't be.

[AMbomb]

I enjoy arguing with Christians even if I dont' convince them I'm right. The Bible's not a source of strength. It's a source of weakness. Believing in the inerrency of the Bible means rejecting things which science has proven are true and believing things it's proven are false.

[jcr4runner]

You say science proves that things are true? How so? In the 1700s, physicists accepted Isaac Newton's Laws of motion as fact. In the 20th century, these were swept aside in favor of Einstein's theory of relativity or quantum mechanics. Darwin's natural selection was all the rage up until Stephen Jay Gould proposed punctuated equilibriium. An so on. Science is always in a state of flux.

Science is useful as a way of sorting data, but it never describes "truth." Not even scientists believe that science is truth. Only a paradigm for describing data. And these paradigms are forever shifting.

In stark contrast, Christian scripture hasn't changed in 2000 years. Christians still hold to the same teachings about of Jesus, God, sin, salvation, the Church and the final judgment as described in Scripture.

What science hasn't changed in the last decade?

[AMbomb]

The fact that science is in a state of flux is a strength and the unchanging nature of Christian scripture is a weakness. Science is changing all the time. New theories come and go. Some are proven, some disproven. But, you're wrong that science never describes truth. It describes truth every time a correct theory comes along. And our understanding of the Universe grows with each one. Christian scripture, as you say, hasn't changed. Christians today still believe in the same primitive notions that Christians believed in in ancient times. Man had essentially no understanding of the Universe when the Bible was written. And the Bible reflects this. Our understanding of the Universe is obviously immeasurably greater than the understanding of those who lived in ancient times and that's because of science.

[jcr4runner]

Can you cite a major scientist who describes science as "TRUTH"?

[AMbomb]

Are you kidding me? Science has done nothing but disprove the Bible! From creation to the existence of a soul science has proven the Bible wrong. According to the Bible, God created all the animals. Evolution tells us all animals in existence today evolved from earlier ones. The Bible inerrent? Click on this link: http://www.goatstar.org/ You want to know what's silly? What's silly is that people are still believing what their primitive forbears who had no understanding of the Universe did millenia ago.

[jcr4runner]

One of the most famous atheists in the world disagrees with you!

George Bernard Shaw once wrote:

“The science to which I pinned my faith is bankrupt. Its counsels, which should have established the millennium, led, instead, directly to the suicide of Europe. I believed them once. In their name I helped to destroy the faith of millions of worshippers in the temples of a thousand creeds. And now they look at me and witness the great tragedy of an atheist who has lost his faith.”

[AMbomb]

Science has proven itself worthy of faith innumerable times. Look at all it's given us. What has religion given us? Ignorance, bigotry and hatred.

[AMbomb]

Christianity gives us ignorance because the factual beliefs it teaches are wrong! Not only that, but it discourages people from seeking the real truth and makes them deaf to it when they hear it. Religious hatred is bigotry. There are plenty of Christians who hate other people because they practice a different religion than they do. There are even Christians who use the Bible to justify racial hatred. Ever hear of the Christian Identity movement? And if you don't think the Bible encourages hatred, check out this passage:
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
Love? Well let's see about that:
"Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27. In a parable, but spoken of favorably.)
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)
Was Jesus showing love when he attacked merchants with a whip in John 2:15? And what about when he refused to heal a sick child until pressured by its mother? Matthew 15:22-28
And what about the very idea of Hell? Sending people to burn forever simply because they didn't believe in him. Is that an act of a loving god?
And how about this passage?: "And that servant [slave], which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47) Jesus never denounced slavery and incorporated the master-slave relationship into many of his parables. If fact, slaveowners used the Bible to justify ownership of slaves. In the final analysis, it doesn't really matter if Christianity teaches love or hate. The point is that Christians do hate others because they're Christians. Being Christians leads them to hate others because they wouldn't hate others who aren't Christians if they weren't Christians. Like I pointed out earlier, the changing nature of science is a strength. Sometimes science gets it wrong. But, look at how many times it's gotten it right. And look how we've benefited from science. What intelligent person wouldn't have faith in something that's brought us so much? On the other hand, having faith in a god that there's not one shred of evidence actually exists is illogical. There are no Christians on Vulcan.

[AMbomb]

It's very easy for an atheist to say what's wrong. What's wrong is what's not true. A factual belief is the belief that something is a fact. Which Christians beliefs are wrong? Where do I start? The belief in an afterlife. The belief in a historical Jesus. The belief in creationism. The belief in a god who wants us to believe in him. As an atheist, I don't believe in God at all. I can't prove there's no such thing as God yet. But, I've already proven that the Christian belief in a god who wants us to believe in him is wrong. I'm not going to play word games with you. If you want to know the definition of bigot, look it up in the dictionary. A person who hates people who practice a different religion than he does is a bigot. And some Christians do. I don't use the passages I cited to support that contention. That some Christians hate is a fact. And that Christianity has led some of them to that hatred is also a fact.