Which millennial theory is correct?

[jcr4runner]

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:31:52 -0400
From: "Matt Cline" <clinevol98@....>
To: jrogers@forerunner.com
Subject: Great premillennial rebuttal articles

Jay,

My name is Matt Cline. I came across your articles about dispensational premillennialism a little earlier.

The recent Israel/Hezbollah war led me to look into what the Bible has to say about the supposed "end times." When the conflict first erupted earlier this summer, my first thought was "this probably will lead to some things that the Bible talks about." I began looking in the Bible and on the internet for answers. One of the websites I came across first is <http://raptureready.com>raptureready.com and its message board (I suggest you look at it just to see the paranoia). In hindsight, this was a very unfortunate thing. The speculation on the war scared me to death. 99% of the people posting messages thought this was going to lead to the "Gog and Magog" invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39 with a "nuclear exchange" taking place between Israel and Iran. This was apparently all talked about in the Bible. But not to worry; Jesus was coming next week to end all of this chaos. When those speculations proved to be inaccurate (at least for the time being), they turned to discussing more general dispensational views. With my attention focus on this subject, TV preachers I had never paid much attention to such as Jack Van Impe, John Hagee, Rod Parsley, and others I noticed were saying the same things.

Virtually every single day, a member of the board would post a news article regarding a new development in Israel or the Middle East, about the European Union or United Nations, the latest news on SARS or bird flu, the latest earthquake (especially those in or near Israel), or the latest advances in RFID technology. These people sounded very paranoid and every single news headline could somehow be interpreted in terms of Bible prophecy. They expected the "Antichrist" to be revealed at any moment as well and there was rampant speculation as to who it might be (Javier Solana, the EU's foreign policy chief, was a name thrown around quite often).

As I said, this speculation scared me to death. Before this, I had believed the dispensational teachings, but I always thought of them in terms of events happening way in the future. This website among some others got me thinking that we might be closer than we think.

However, I am very glad I found your website. After reading your articles and every other postmillennial article I could find, I have found that the Bible speaks of no "pre-tribulation rapture," "7-year tribulation," a single world ruler in the "Antichrist" (with a capital A), or a Russian-Iranian invasion of Israel. The premillennial theories still frighten me, but I am slowly learning to put them aside. In fact, I began to realize that even if the premillennial theories are true, they aren't close to taking place. Is Russia going to invade Israel anytime soon? I don't think so. According to the USGS, major earthquakes have actually been on the decline recent years

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/faq.php?categoryID=6&faqID=110

Oh but wait, our government and its entities is lying to us and it is leading us to a one-world government headed by the "Antichrist," right?

I find it funny that these people talk about SARS, AIDS, and bird flu as the "pestilences" that Jesus says would come in the last days. According to Wikipedia, 151 people have died from bird flu. 774 people died in the SARS outbreak. Compare this with the 50 million people that died from the flu epidemic in 1918 or the Black Plague from 1347-1351 that killed a third to two-thirds of Europe's population! By comparison, the most deadly pandemic of our time, AIDS, has "only" killed 25 million. And it isn't even contagious; you have to do something incredibly stupid to get it. If anything, the world is a much healthier place today than ever before! Wars and rumors of wars; haven't there always been wars? You get my point.

So let me ask you a question. We are currently living in the millennium as described in Revelation 20. It is described as a very long period of time. How far to do you personally believe we are in this period of time? Jesus could theoretically return at any second, but are the chances high that He will? Are you expecting Him soon? Why or why not? Does anything, anything at all involving the modern-day nation of Israel somehow tie in with the Second Coming? Finally, what is God waiting on before He ends history?

Thanks so much for your website,
Matt Cline

[jcr4runner]

Here are some answers to your questions.

There is a lot more at:

http://forerunner.com/eschatology/eschatology.html

Some of the questions you ask below are answered in more detail there.

So let me ask you a question. We are currently living in the millennium as described in Revelation 20. It is described as a very long period of time. How far to do you personally believe we are in this period of time?


There is no way of knowing, because Jesus forbade us to know anything about the time of the Second Coming, while he did pinpoint the exact year of the destruction of Jerusalem -- not more than 40 years from his prediction.

I look at the progress of the Gospel in history and I expect to live a longtime and die of old age. I won't be raptured during my life on earth.

However, I believe we live in exciting times. More Christians than in all history were converted in the last century -- and most in non-western countries.

Jesus could theoretically return at any second, but are the chances high that He will? Are you expecting Him soon? Why or why not?

I don't think Jesus Christ will return until the Great Commission is fulfilled.

He said: "And then the end shall come." Not before that. I also think that discipling the nations means far more than just making converts, but it involves "teaching them all that I have commanded you." That could take generations in some cases. I am not just looking for converts but also for Christian culture to be cultivated.

Does anything, anything at all involving the modern-day nation of Israel somehow tie in with the Second Coming?

Not geo-political Israel -- but rather the conversion of the Jews as an ethnic group. I don't believe there will one day be Temple sacrifices again or anything like that.

Finally, what is God waiting on before He ends history?

The conversion of the world and discipling of the nations. Not eveyone will be saved of course, but we will see a significant portion of each ethnic nation converted to Christ. And after that I think they will develop Christian culture for some generations before Christ returns.

[clinevol98]

thanks for your response jay. this certainly makes a lot more sense than the "iran will nuke israel, then russia will invade israel to help iran because they want their oil, then we will be 'secretly raptured,' then the antichrist will rise up out of the EU, then a 7-year tribulation will commence, then Jesus will return with the raptured saints and rule the Earth from Jerusalem for 1,000 years, then Satan will be loosed from the abyss, and then Satan will be defeated and Christ will reign forever" crowd that is expecting it any second. they seem to believe that only within the last few years have we entered a period where the "rapture" is imminent. go to raptureready.com's message board and you'll see what i mean.

to me, it is much more comforting as well because i also expect to (and want to) live a long and enjoyable life here on Earth before i die or am "raptured."

as you say, making "disciples" of all nations seems to mean a lot more than just winning over converts in those nations. if we are to make disciples of all nations, then look at the tremendous work we have ahead of us in Africa, the arab world, and in individual nations like China. besides, Jesus told us to expect a long wait anyway.

also, do you believe that there will be a large scale conversion of the jews before Jesus returns?

[jcr4runner]

Most amillennial and post millennial theologians throughout the centuries took Paul's prophecy literally: "And all Israel will be saved." In that as their casting away was national, so will their conversion be national.

I personally don't think that "all" means 100 percent, but something like "it will be unusual to find a Jew that doesn't believe in Jesus.

Charles Hodge explained the "common church view" in his Systematic Theology.

All Christians agree that the church, called "the Bride" and "the New Jerusalem" in Revelation 20, exists both in heaven and on earth prior to the Second Coming. We agree that Revelation 20 describes the final attack of Satan's forces against Christ and the church. All Christians agree that Christ will return in bodily form at the end of history to judge the living and the dead.

We also agree that the events that are to precede the Second Advent are as follows:

1. The universal diffusion of the Gospel will occur in history; or, as our Lord expresses it, the ingathering of the elect; this is the primary calling and purpose of the church.

2. The conversion of the Jews is to be national. (As their casting away was national, although a remnant was saved; so their conversion will be national, although some may remain hardened.)

3. After the Great Commission is fulfilled, there will be a general apostasy, which will occur for a brief time prior to the Second Coming of the Lord.

We agree that the events of the Second Coming are as follows:

1. The resurrection of the dead, of the just and of the unjust.

2. The final judgment.

3. The end of the world.

4. The consummation of Christ's kingdom.

This is called the "common church doctrine," because it has been the prevalent idea among all Christians for 2000 years. For the first few hundred years of church history, the common doctrine did not even have a name. There was no elaborate differentiation of millennial theories such as is found among today's Bible scholars. It was simply the broad statement of faith of the Apostle's Creed and the teachings of the church fathers.

For more information on the common church view see:

http://forerunner.com/eschatology/X0003 ... uttal.html

[clinevol98]

There is one thing that I don't quite understand though. All the events you have just described sound like they won't occur in our lifetime, much less during the lifetimes of the apostles. So why was the Second Coming always talked about in an imminent sense in the Bible as if they were expecting it any second?

I mean, I don't see any sort of large scale conversion of the Jews anytime soon (do you?) and surely the apostles didn't expect it in the 1st Century either. The Gospel wasn't even close to being preached all around the world back then either and we still have not fully discipled to all nations even today.

[jcr4runner]

I disagree that the disciples were told that the Second Coming was imminent. In fact, if they were told that the Second Coming was imminent, then that woud refute Jesus as being the Son of God -- or even as a true prophet -- since this did not come to pass in their generation.

They were told that the destruction of Jerusalem would occur in one generation, but they were also told that the "end is not yet."

For a more complete discussion of this see:

http://forerunner.com/beast/X0005_Matthew_24.html

Eschatology is the study of the last things (from the Greek: eskatos or "last things"). The last things, according to the Bible, are the fulfillment of the Great Commission, the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Resurrection of the Living and the Dead, and the Final Judgment.

According to Acts 1:6-8, Jesus Christ gave some last words to His disciples specifically forbidding them to inquire into the study of the end times. They asked Him: "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Jerusalem?" Jesus rebuked them saying: "It is not for you to know the times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." Instead, Christ commanded to be concerned with fulfilling the Great Commission: "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

It is important to remember that eschatology is the study of last things not the end times. In our day, Christians seem more fascinated than ever with this forbidden study "end times." Rather than focusing on helping to fulfill the Great Commission, one of the God-ordained "last things," they concentrate instead on interpreting the daily news in light of Scripture.

Earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars, famines in Africa, pestilence in various places, the spread of false religions, signs in the heavens, growing tensions in the Middle East. All these things point to the time when the world has entered the end times. Right?

Wrong!

"See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of sorrows" (Mat. 24:6-8).

Many Christians in our day look in the daily news for an increase of earthquakes, wars, famines, pestilence, false religions, signs in the heavens and tensions in the Middle East over the nation of Israel. They interpret Christ's admonition to the disciples to mean exactly the opposite of what it literally says.

The fact that "all these things" are occurring in our day has nothing to do with Matthew 24. They have nothing to do with the end times, In fact, when Jesus said, "all these things must come to pass" he was speaking specifically of events in the first century.

"The disciples" Jesus is speaking to here may have been more than only the Twelve. Some of these lived past the year 70 when the Jewish Temple was destroyed. The Jewish historian Josephus in his book, Wars of the Jews, has some fascinating records of providentially ordained earthquakes, natural calamities and wars which occurred around the time of the siege of Jerusalem (67-70).

Jesus implies in this Matthew 24, that at least some of His disciples would live to see "these things" (v. 6). For example, He says, "You will hear ..." (v. 6); "Then they will deliver you up ..." (v. 9); "Therefore when you see ..." (v. 15).

For a more complete discussion of this see:

http://forerunner.com/beast/X0005_Matthew_24.html

[clinevol98]

Well, at least to me, saying things like "watch, for you do not know the hour" and "as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming" sound like they expected the Second Coming at any second. It certainly doesn't say that Jesus would come during their lives, but it doesn't do a whole lot to say that Jesus' coming was a long time away either. I'm not disagreeing with you; just trying to come from a different viewpoint.

So, all in all, Jesus could theoretically return at any moment, but you're not necessarily expecting Him to because the Great Commission has not been fulfilled, correct? It it even close to being fulfilled?

But what I really wanted to come back here to ask you is some more stuff I heard from Hagee. I can't say that I buy any of it, but at first glance I can't really refute much of it either.

I'm sure you're familiar with the prophecies of Daniel. Aside from the interpretation of the "Antichrist" arising out of the European Union coming from this book, Daniel 12:4 says "But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge." Hagee asserts that this literally translates to a "knowledge explosion" and that we are the generation that has seen this knowledge explosion. To "prove" this, he talks about progress in communications. According to him, communication was the same from the 1st Century to the 20th Century. But from the 20th Century until today, we've gone from the telegraph, to the telephone, to the television, and now to the Internet. This was somehow a sign that the end is near. He tied this in with the two witnesses in that the "entire world" will see in Revelation, saying that this would be impossible until recently.

Next he talked about Zechariah 14:12, which talks about eyes rotting out of peoples' eye sockets and tongues rotting out of mouths. He asserted that this is speaking of nuclear weapons (hydrogen bombs in particular) because they get hot enough to "dissolve" or "rot" human flesh. He claimed that "no one knew what this meant" until nuclear weapons were invented and "now we all know that it means that there will be a 'nuclear exchange'" in the Middle East. This is clearly described as a "plague," as if it is a sickness, so I don't see any connection to nuclear weapons. Do you?

Then he moved on to various prophecies about the rebirth of Israel in 1948 (I can't remember the exact Scripture references he provided). He claimed that after the third time the Jews are brought back into their homeland that the Messiah will come (with the 1948 rebirth of Israel being the third time). He claimed that Israel itself being reborn in 1948 was somehow Biblically prophesied, that it was an act of God, and that it has signaled Jesus' soon return. Also, anyone who attempts to divide the land of Israel, including the United States, would be cursed according to him (Joel 3:2).

Again, I'm not really believing any of this, but I'd like to hear some refutations. There's even a website with 101 "last days prophecies" at http://www.harpazo.net/101/List.html and a defense of the "Russian invasion of Israel" at http://www.harpazo.net/magog.html.

By the way, not surprisingly I haven't gotten a rebuttal from Van Impe yet.

[jcr4runner]

"His coming"

In my Matthew 24 article, I denote several different meanings of the phrase "His coming" and the "Last days."

http://forerunner.com/beast/X0005_Matthew_24.html

It's also worthy to note that Jesus speaks not of the Second Coming here, but the "sign of His coming" -- in my view the only sign of His coming that we can know for sure is the fulfillment of the Great Commission. This is also one of the signs of "the last days" spoken of by the prophet Joel according to Peter.

"His coming" can mean in various places:

1. His coming through the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
2. His coming in judgment on Jerrusalem in AD 70.
3. His coming in Revival and Spritual Awakening through history.
4. The bodily Second Coming of Jesus.

Check out the specific context to see which interpretation makes the most sense in each case.

The knowledge explosion of Daniel

In my articles on Daniel, I interpret this as follows:

http://forerunner.com/daniel/X0010_Inte ... of_Da.html

12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The time of the end is the time when these prophecies shall be fulfilled. In my view that was at the time of Christ since the entire book of Daniel is to point the Jews to the coming (first coming) of the Messiah.

Essentially, the angel is saying simply that world history is going to go on and the nations are going to grow and progress until the time of the Messiah. At that time, people are going to have the key to interpreting Daniel. As did Jesus when he referred to Daniel in Matthew 24.

From our perspective today, an understanding of Daniel is paramount to understanding the Mount of Olives Discourse in Matthew 24, Luke 20 and Mark 13. In two of these passages, Jesus refers to the "abomination of desolation referred to in the prophecy of Daniel." In Mark 13:14, the author inserts the aside: ("let the reader understand"). "Understand what exactly?" one might ask. Obviously, from the context, we must understand this passage of Daniel. And unless we have the correct interpretation of Daniel, we will not be able to understand the Mount of Olives Discourse.

Therefore, a historical approach to Daniel is necessary for understanding the purpose of the book of Daniel. Daniel was a prophecy given so that the restored Jews would know the times and events surrounding the coming of the Messiah. That is the main purpose of Daniel chapters 2, 7-12.

We should note that in the book of Revelation the words of the prophecy are not shut up but left open. Why?

Because John lived in the time when the prophecy of Daniel was opened.

Zechariah 14:12

I haven't written my commentary on Zechariah. I don't see it as an eschatological book even though John draws from its imagery with the four horses.

The Rebirth of Israel in 1948

Again, see my article on Matthew 24.

http://forerunner.com/beast/X0005_Matthew_24.html

The dispensational premillennialists teach that "this generation" in Matthew 243:4 refers to our generation today and that this generation is the last one; that we are very close to the Second Coming of Christ; and that we are literally in the "last days" of history. They also believe that there is ample proof of this. This view of eschatology points to Israel becoming a nation-state again in 1948 and uses the parable of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32-34 as the proof text.

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors" (Mat. 24:32,33).

The dispensationalists interpreted "the fig tree" to be the nation-state of Israel which reemerged in 1948. They linked the restoration of Israel to the following statement of Jesus:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mat. 24:34).

They said that "this generation" was the forty year period after that time or 1948 to 1988. Although many looked for Christ's return in one generation after the restoration of Israel, these "prophecy experts" were disappointed when their time-table turned out to be wrong, such Edgar Whisenant and his 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988.

Let's face it, too many Christians are more attracted to sensationalism, than sound doctrine. Whisenant was asked on a radio show by listener in the fall of 1988 who wanted to know: "What are you going to do if your prediction is wrong?" What he did was to adjust his base date and republish the book under a new title: 89 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1989. It seems that the prophets of doom are really more concerned with the profits of doom!

But beyond the fact that Jesus didn't return in 1988, a generation after the restoration of Israel, any interpretation of Matthew 24:32-34 as an "end-times" event is weak for a couple of reasons. First, as it is claimed, Israel is not always represented by a fig tree in Scripture. Most often, Israel is represented by an olive tree. Second, when we compare Luke 21:29, (the parallel passage) we see that Jesus in the same parable, includes not only the "fig tree," but also "all the trees." Clearly this passage is a parable and not an allegory. An allegory uses a "this stands for this" symbolism. A parable merely illustrates a point. The fig tree isn't meant to stand for anything, not Israel, not any country, not any thing. "When you see these things happening know that the end (the destruction of Jerusalem) is near." Note that this event already occurred in 70 AD, less than one generation from the time of Christ's prediction (about 30 to 31 AD). Thus the destruction of Jerusalem occurred exactly one generation from Jesus' prophecy. It is not a future event.

Up until this point, Jesus is speaking of first century events, but then the focus of the Olivet Discourse shifts towards the literal end of the world:

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mat. 24:35,36).

The word in Greek for "age" used in Matthew 24:3, aeon, is also frequently used to mean "world." I believe Jesus is here finally answering his disciples main concern over the end of the world, or eschatology, the "last things," (i.e., the Second Coming, the Resurrection, and the final judgment).

Christ's narrative throughout this passage (Matthew 24:35 through chapter 25) describes how He will progressively remove unrighteous people out of the world slowly at first and more rapidly as we see the kingdom advance in the world.

Matthew 24:35 through the end of chapter 25 do not refer to "all the evil things we see happening today," but to judgment progressively falling on the wicked to remove them from the world as the kingdom of God advances.

Also compare these passages with Matthew 24:14: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

The sign of the end of the world is not a great tribulation; that had already occurred by 70 AD. This is implicit in the text of Matthew 24:6-28 and 24:32-34. The "sign of the end of the world" is the victory of the Church in preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, not defeat and tribulation.

Thus a sound interpretation of Matthew 24 includes elements of Preterism (events happening before 70 AD pertaining to the disciples' first question: vv. 4-28); Historicism (the gospel advancing in the world as a sign of Christ's coming v. 31); pertaining to the disciples' second question, and both Idealism and Futurism to interpret Jesus' answer to the disciples' third question (vv. 36-51 to the end of chapter 25).

Today's futurists make the same mistake as the disciples by assuming that they were just asking one question, when these events are unrelated from a historical viewpoint.

At this point, you might be asking: "So what does this chapter have to do with the Great Tribulation and the timing of the rapture?"

Nothing!

In fact, Jesus speaks of taking His disciples out of the world not once in this passage nor in the parallel passages of Mark 13 or Luke 21 In fact, the only time Jesus speaks of taking his disciples out of the world is in John 17:15,16: "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one."

[clinevol98]

Jay, perhaps you can help me understand these verses as well. They sure sound like the Early Church was expecting Christ's coming in their lifetime.

Romans 13:11-12: "...because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here." - Is Paul's saying of "our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed" indicative of the Second Coming?

1 Corinthians 7:29: "What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short." - Again, is Paul speaking of the Second Coming here?

Also, what Biblical evidence is there to show that the Church, through its expanding influence, will bring about a brief time of peace with most of each nation of the world being Christian before the Second Coming? The Bible talks about wars and violence going on until the end (Daniel 9:26). This isn't to say that the Church won't continue to grow until the Second Coming, because it surely has and will continue to do so, but I don't quite see where the Bible says that the world will be a very peaceful, predominantly Christian place before the Second Coming.

Considering that the Gospel has been preached to all nations, it seems like the Second Coming should be happening soon even though we've already discussed reasons why you don't expect to see the Second Coming in your lifetime.